The Perpetual Virginity of Mary and Jesus' "brothers"

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I only provided the link regarding the explanation of both a tradition of perpetual virginity and references to Jesus' brothers in scripture, but as you mention it Adrian:

The following I find highly unconvincing (specifically that the question only makes sense given a vow of virginity)

"When the angel Gabriel appeared to Mary and told her that she would conceive a son, she asked, "How can this be since I have no relations with a man?" (Luke 1:34). From the Church’s earliest days, as the Fathers interpreted this Bible passage, Mary’s question was taken to mean that she had made a vow of lifelong virginity, even in marriage. (This was not common, but neither was it unheard of.) If she had not taken such a vow, the question would make no sense."

In saying this, you agree with my (Catholic) New Jerusalem Bible, which states that "[n]othing in the text suggests a vow of virginity", which I agree with in turn. I also agree that saying that it makes no sense without a vow is going too far. On the other hand:

In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed [b] to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. And the virgin's name was Mary. And he came to her and said, "Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!" But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and tried to discern what sort of greeting this might be. And the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end."

And Mary said to the angel, "How will this be, since I am a virgin?" [d]

And the angel answered her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy--the Son of God.[...]" - Luke 1:26-35

[b] That is, legally pledged to be married
[d] Greek since I do not know a man

It is a bit of an odd question. This girl is pledged to be married, but the question seems to indicate that she has had no introduction to the facts of life, and more specifically, that marriage to Joseph might just possibly entail making babies. Why is she surprised at the idea that she is going to have a child, given that she hasn't been told about the virgin birth at this point? I just realised that I could have posted what the article said after the bit you quoted - may as well now:

If she had anticipated having children in the normal way [...] she would hardly have to ask "how" she was to have a child, since conceiving a child in the "normal" way would be expected by a newlywed wife.

The text doesn't imply a vow, but a vow does provide an explanation for the text. It's a hypothesis which seems to fit the facts of the matter, rather than a proof, which happens to accord with a very venerable tradition. Feel free to explain it another way. I'd be quite interested; I don't think I've seen an attempt to explain it without a reference to the vow hypothesis.

On Mary's virginity and Jesus' brothers...

Nice as it is to be regarded as the local question-answerer regarding Catholicism, a quick trip to the web, where this question has surely been answered very thoroughly thousands of times, or to a library, would do equally well.

Look here. There is no need for me to paraphrase it.

The Intercession of the Saints pt. 3

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Update: Looking back at this, I think I rushed myself a bit - it's not so coherent as I am. If I wasn't blogging during my lunch-break, I'd probably go back over it - but I am. It's a bit rambling. Ho-hum.

I think it's because of an ambiguity in the word "prayer". The obvious and primary sense of prayer is a petition to an object of worship i.e. God, in our case. A secondary sense which is by now an archaism, but which nonetheless exists, is an earnest petition to a person. So we ask them to pray for us or, to put it another way, we pray them to pray for us.

Worship is right out - as I hope you assume already, of me, if not my church. There are two words in Greek, latria and doulia, usually rendered "worship" and "veneration" respectively. Latria is worship that should be due only to God, hence "ido-latry" and "Mario-latry" are very-bad-things. However, doulia may also be rendered "worship", as the root of the word which tends to denote latria is "worth-ship" or worthiness. This is obviously a misleading use of the word, which we now apply only to God in common usage, though not in the courts, where we are expected to address certain magistrates as "your worship". I mention this only to suggest that there are complications of language involved; basically, we don't worship saints.

It's about asking them to help us in the same way we might ask any Christian to help us.

For a dogmatic church, there's a remarkable amount of room for individualism within Catholicism. It's largely a matter of personal devotion. Within corporate worship, we pray to Mary very regularly, as follows:

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.

Amen.

Though this probably gets the old alarm bells ringing theologically, as it once did for me, you can see that it's basically a prayer for her prayer. We pray to the saints and angels en masse, within our general confession as follows:

I confess to almighty God,
and to you,
my brothers and sisters,
that I have sinned through my own fault,
in my thoughts and in my words,
in what I have done,
and in what I have failed to do;
and I ask blessed Mary,
ever virgin,
all the angels and saints,
and you,
my brothers and sisters,
to pray for me to the Lord our God.

On certain occasions we will have a litany of the saints, where we simply ask a lot of saints one after to pray for us - i.e. "St. Benedict, Pray for us." - and we have All Saints on November 1st. Individual saints are remembered (or not) at masses throughout the year, though in such a way as you might well miss it if you're not paying attention. I think that's about as much as comes from the initiative of the Church really.

As I say, it's about personal devotions really. I don't pray to the saints much, but sometimes I pray to St. Justin Martyr - my name saint, St. Polycarp, St. Augustine, St. Maria Goretti, St. Francis, and a few others. Back in the day, I believe the cultus of saints tended to develop spontaneously, especially with martyrs, but these days the Church recommends certain "righteous men" whose prayers we can therefore expect to be "powerful and effective" (James 5:16). That, in essence, is why we do.

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I ran into Dave today. It so happens that his sandwich van (of which I had no knowledge hitherto) is one of the throng that comes to Pynes Hill (a place which the agencies would appear to regard as my spiritual home). So when I went out to to indulge myself, there he was, and the chocolate brownie which I purchased from him was very satisfactory, leaving aside the cost of £1.

He said he found my blog, but he couldn't find the posts I wrote on saintly intercession, which he apparently intended to read. Here they are:

Number 1 - Number 2

Happy sandwich-selling Dave.

In other news, I discover that I am enrolled with Exeter College to take evening classes in Italian. Wahey!

Further, I discover that it's been delayed for a week. Boo! Except not so very boo, as this means I can go to a chaplaincy mass this term after all. Wahey.

Football Grounds

I'm trying to list all the football grounds I've visited. This is what I've got so far:

Wednesday games

Hillsborough (Sheff Wed)
Boothferry Park (Hull)
Wembley (Rumbelows cup final vs Man Utd)
The Dell (Southampton)
Pride Park (Derby)
City Ground (Nottingham Forest)
Manor Ground (Oxford United)
Goldstone Ground (Brighton & Hove Albion)
Villa Park (Aston Villa) - notable for the Wednesday crown goading Stan Collymore continuously throughout the game, singing "Where's Ulrika gone?". Then he scored.
Turf Moor (Burnley) - Featuring the worst pie I've ever eaten
Craven Cottage (Fulham)
Fratton Park (Portsmouth)
Priestfield Stadium (Gillingham)
Edgeley Park (Stockport)
Boundary Park (Oldham)
Kenilworth Rd (Luton)
Millenium Stadium (League One playoff final vs Hartlepool)
Madjedski Stadium (Reading)
KC Stadium (Hull)

- Reserves/Friendlies

Broadfield Stadium (Crawley Town) - preseason friendly
Moss Rose (Macclesfield) - preseason friendly
Old Trafford (Man Utd) - for the reserve cup final last season

Farnborough Town

Cherrywood Road (Farnborough Town)
Kingfield (Woking)

Random

Oakwell (Barnsley vs Brighton) - this was my first match.
Wembley (England vs Italy friendly) - I know I've already put this one down.
Finnair Stadium (Jokerit v TPS and HJK v FC Lahti)
Bramall Lane (Sheff Utd) - Emma's brass band played at half time. I think Mum and Dad took us to see Billy Graham many years ago.
Llanelian Road (Colwyn Bay vs Bradford City) - preseason friendly. For James Womack's birthday (approximately).

Total: 29

That's all I can think of at the moment. I'm sure Dad can think of some more. Note the heavy bias towards South East & London clubs. Largely because I've been to mostly home games while in Manchester (exceptions being Oldham, Stockport, Old Trafford) or Sheffield, and away games while in Farnborough/Camberley.

A countdown timer appears on James' blog. I seem to remember putting a countdown timer to Soul Calibur II on mine once.

Oh Mark you know what? I've just listened to "Something changed" by Pulp. You know what? That is the very first song you sang me. I know you don't remember with your 3 seconds memory, but it was in Cowley Bridge Road we weren't together at that time. Well, something changed, indeeeeeeeeeeeeeed!!!!!!!!!!!

I've just finished to talk with my parents on the phone. I'm so happy! This is the first time after a long time that my mum seemed like she was used to be. I don't know really how to thank God for answering my prayer. They have been on a day out yesterday and she said it was great and she had fun. It was a sunny day and they went with other people in Abruzzo. They were in the mountains, they have been in lots of small villages and they said the food was great! My mum said she ate like a pig!Which is great because she lost her appetite and lot of weight.

I'm listening to Pulp, I like them. Thank you Mark. But I have to admit I also listen to Shakira singing in Spanish sometimes, but this is only to improve my Spanish.

Today was 1st day of Welcome Week. I had the usual problems with registry and it's not sorted yet. I was a bit annoyed but this phone call really changed my mood. I don't want to think about anything else. Oh, tonight I'm also going to phone my friend, Marghe, who is a nun in a cloister up on the mountain. Oh and she is going to become an auntie soon!!! I'm not for the moment, my sister and her husband are a bit lazy! I'm using a lot of exclamation mark!

Friday was my last day at the English Language Centre. Leaving was a bit sad. I had a good time. There have been up and down but I enjoyed meeting and helping the international students. Being a foreigner myself I identified with them a lot. When they came at reception lost and disorientated it was like seeing myself when I first arrived. I didn't have a room to sleep and the airline lost my baggage! I was really confused. When I entered my room in George House I was shocked. It was really really small, I was tired and I needed a shower, but I didn't have anything with me. Not a good start! But when I looked outside the window I could see the bell tower of a church, and that sight comforted me. Then I found a Bible in a drawer and I started reading. I remembered the words the priest told me when I had confession before leaving. He hold my hand and he looked straight into my eyes and said "Be always near God, be always close to him wherever you go, remain faithful to him." I tried my best, sometimes I failed. I used to repeat these words quite a lot during the first months in England. I didn't feel so disorientated and so lost because I didn't feel alone, I knew He was next to me in all my trials. Now it's the same, I feel a bit confused and scared. University is starting and I don't know anybody. I need to find a part time job and I've got millions of other things to do. On Friday coming back home, I sat on a bench, listening to the rustling of the leaves watching the clouds. It was so peaceful. I remembered those words and I'm not feeling so overwhelmed now.

Today is a good day. The sun is out the sky is blue!!!!But today is good because my mum had a visit to the doctor and he reduced the medications. The next visit is on December and I might be there to go along with her. There might be the chance that the doctor will suspend the treatment, that would be great! Tomorrow she is going with my dad on a day out with some other people. I 'm so happy she is feeling better, I prayed so much for her.

Last night I saw for the first time in my life a chocolate fountain! It was great! Unfortunately I had a very bad IBS attack on Tuesday and after just the sight of chocolate makes me sick. I 'm going to stop eating chocolate for a month. I want to check if these attacks are linked to it. I know it's mainly stress that causes it but maybe chocolate has something to with it. Anyway, I m not really crazy for chocolate. I'm more a pizza person. But some days you just want chocolate, only chocolate. And it's not even that I'm eating bars and bars of chocolate, just chocolate biscuits. I know it makes me scratch my legs a lot. It's not fair, not fair at all. All I ask is just a bit of chocolate when I need it, but as a wise man once told me "A moment on your lips a lifetime on your hips!" And you know, being a Mediterranean girl my hips don't need any help in that sense! So unfair! So unfair!

You may not be very interested, but I've altered the template a little. I've put Dave Armstrong on my blogroll, even though it's rather involved and polemical, as I like to know what he's arguing about.

I've added a link to a page containing works of G.K. Chesterton as well, a man whose work it is worth your while to read. Fact.

Thieves respect property. They merely wish the property to become their property that they may more perfectly respect it.

Misers get up early in the morning; and burglars, I am informed, get up the night before.

It is the one great weakness of journalism as a picture of our modern existence, that it must be a picture made up entirely of exceptions. We announce on flaring posters that a man has fallen off a scaffolding. We do not announce on flaring posters that a man has not fallen off a scaffolding. Yet this latter fact is fundamentally more exciting, as indicating that that moving tower of terror and mystery, a man, is still abroad upon the earth. That the man has not fallen off a scaffolding is really more sensational; and it is also some thousand times more common. But journalism cannot reasonably be expected thus to insist upon the permanent miracles. Busy editors cannot be expected to put on their posters, "Mr. Wilkinson Still Safe," or "Mr. Jones, of Worthing, Not Dead Yet." They cannot announce the happiness of mankind at all. They cannot describe all the forks that are not stolen, or all the marriages that are not judiciously dissolved. Hence the complex picture they give of life is of necessity fallacious; they can only represent what is unusual. However democratic they may be, they are only concerned with the minority.

The Bible tells us to love our neighbors, and also to love our enemies; probably because they are generally the same people.

Poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese.

It is terrible to contemplete how few politicians are hanged.

'My country, right or wrong' is a thing that no patriot would think of saying, except in a desperate case. It is like saying, 'My mother, drunk or sober'.

There is a very special sense in which materialism has more restrictions than spiritualism. Mr. McCabe thinks me a slave because I am not allowed to believe in determinism. I think Mr. McCabe a slave because he is not allowed to believe in fairies. But if we examine the two vetoes we shall see that his is really much more of a pure veto than mine. The Christian is quite free to believe that there is a considerable amount of settled order and inevitable development in the universe. But the materialist is not allowed to admit into his spotless machine the slightest speck of spiritualism or miracle. Poor Mr. McCabe is not allowed to retain even the tiniest imp, though it might be hiding in a pimpernel.

Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly.

The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult; and left untried.

You have no business to be an unbeliever. You ought to stand for all the things these stupid people call superstitions. Come now, don't you think there's a lot in those old wives' tales about luck and charms and so on, silver bullets included? What do you say about them as a Catholic?'
'I say I'm an agnostic,' replied Father Brown, smiling.
'Nonsense,' said Aylmer impatiently. 'It's your business to believe things.'
'Well, I do believe some things, of course,' conceded Father Brown; 'and therefore, of course, I don't believe other things.'

"'Free verse'? You may as well call sleeping in a ditch 'free architecture.'"

I've searched all the parks in all the cities
And found no statues of committees.

Without education, we are in a horrible and deadly danger of taking educated people seriously.

You can only find truth with logic if you have already found truth without it.

Got a bit carried away there. Top tip: never look at Wikiquote.

Hello there!

Google has finally stopped finding the doblog when you search for my surname. Now I can post in relative confidence that none of my students will be able to find this site. Therefore I can moan about them to my hearts content. They are not that bright anyway so probably would not have found it but never mind.

I have been at school three weeks so far (including this one) and am starting a club. Hurrah. We are going to enter a competition that involves deciphering encryptions. It looks cool. From a geeks point of view anyway. Already got a few students interested. An actual club related to Maths that does not sound boring. (and linguistics of course)

Anyway better go, tis late for a school night.